Podcasts
The Human Side of Change: Satir, Patterns, Systems, and Complexity with Don Gray
In this episode of That Change Show, Jason sits down with Don Gray for a deep dive into the realities of change management—beyond frameworks, buzzwords, and rigid processes. They explore why change is messy, how emotions and values shape resistance, and why organizations often focus on the wrong levers when trying to transform.
Drawing from personal experiences, the Satir Change Model, and insights from complex systems thinking, Jason and Don challenge the traditional right-hand-side approach to change (processes & tools) and emphasize the often-overlooked left-hand-side (culture, strategy, and human dynamics).
Along the way, they revisit stories from the Aye Conference, Agile 2012, and Problem Solving Leadership (PSL) workshops, discussing how adaptive thinking, small shifts, and informal change agents can lead to meaningful transformation.
What You’ll Learn:
✅ Why organizations resist change—and why that’s normal ✅ The butterfly effect of small shifts in complex systems ✅ How patterns form, evolve, and disrupt change efforts ✅ The power of timing, emotions, and informal change agents ✅ Why solving problems for people actually makes things worse